What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

topic posted Fri, July 29, 2005 - 2:11 PM by  Kanch
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What is to forgive if we are all one? How does one surrender to this vision of oneness anyhow?

Just some questions I thought of in a spark of inspiration... ;-)
posted by:
Kanch
Australia
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  • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

    Fri, July 29, 2005 - 2:27 PM
    The way I understand it, forgiveness is only necessary when the belief in seperation still exists. To accept the atonement (At-Onement) is our only duty. You don't have to surrender anything to accept the atonement. Just let the ego's illusions go and See that God is in everyone and everything. Forgiveness opens the path to the atonement. We can practice forgiveness by not holding any grievances, no matter how small.

    GodBless
  • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

    Fri, July 29, 2005 - 4:03 PM
    Are you trying to forgive someone or just conditioning the forgiveness muscles in general?

    I will send you some light to help you along.
    • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

      Fri, July 29, 2005 - 10:36 PM
      Myself. Love is conditional.
      • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

        Sat, July 30, 2005 - 11:07 AM
        In my thinking, Love is the fundamental nature of things and a
        state of Being.. its one of the early lessons that the "glue of the Universe"
        so's to speak is love.

        When we are present to that state, forgiveness is easy, because there's nothing to forgive. When we lose awareness of Love's presence, then we parctice letting go of our ideas about what has happened.

        According to the early lessons.. maybe 1-25... we don't question our experience so much as our rationalizations, our judgements and justifications
        around those experiences.
        • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

          Sat, July 30, 2005 - 9:59 PM
          So?

          Does this mean that the WHOLE question of "How do I become more loving?" is at a remove from actual experience... that the precise surrender we seek is in our mentations and opinions that experience could EVER be other than love?
          • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

            Fri, August 12, 2005 - 12:35 PM
            That is exactly what I'm saying. Its sort of like where the course
            says that the question how "did the ego happen" is moot.

            The way of doing the course is by doing it.
            The course does not say how.

            The "real world" in ACIM jargon is a gestalt. If you see it you cannot see
            "the ego" which is also a gestalt the seeing of which precludes seeing the "real world."
  • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

    Fri, August 12, 2005 - 6:15 AM
    ~NAMASTE~

    I love the allegories the Deepak Chopra uses regarding the seeming dichotomy of Seperateness vs Oneness . . .

    The vastness of the Ocean/Oneness
    The spray and drops of water as the Ocean breaks on the shore/Seperateness

    In my journey and growth I have moved from the Illusion of Seperateness to seeing the Beauty of our individual uniqueness. The Universe is One, but is it not breathtaking in the infinite varieties it takes on?

    As above
    So below.

    UNITY IN DIVERSITY

    Infinite Light and Love

    • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

      Mon, August 15, 2005 - 10:33 AM
      Seeing uniqueness...is seeing with the ego mind.

      This whole universe is an illusion... a dream. It is a projection of the ego mind. It never happened. The ego mind is tricky it wants "you" to see individuals because this keeps you believing that "you" have been separated from God.

      Nothing of God changes...God did not create this physical universe it is merely a projection of the one ego mind. Duality in all of its forms. Remember how science has discovered that light can either be a wave or a particle, depending on the observor? All light on the physical universe is thought...duality.

      The Course teaches pure non-duality and how to be aware of this.

      I don't see the Universe as breathtaking...it is chaotic..divides...everything decays, there is disease, everything feeds off of something to live...all physical forms pass away...this is what the ego thought system creates. This universe is nothing more than a shadow of what Heaven is.

      Nothing of God changes or is chaotic...

      Forgiveness is about making the choice to forgive all that is perceived, it is coming from layers of deep unconscious thought that believes it is possible to separate from God. The ego wants to protect you from the horror and guilt brought on by the thought that you separated from God. This is all a dream...by forgiving...your unconscious thoughts will be healed and this awareness will become stronger...you will make the choice to see with Holy Spirit/Jesus/Christ/Soul eyes...and gently wake up from the illusion.

      In love,
      Dawn
      • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

        Thu, August 18, 2005 - 5:01 PM
        [Seeing uniqueness...is seeing with the ego mind.]

        Yes, one could very well 'perceive' it as such.

        Just as one could 'perceive' the above quoted statement as being an
        ego-driven statement.

        I 'perceive' both; the Oneness and the Uniqueness . . . for they are but one in the same, are they not?

        How could we know the Divine, if not first 'perceiving' the opposite?

        We are in the 'world', but not of the 'world' . . .we chose to be here to know the Divine, to know Ourselves, for we are but one and the same.

        We recognize the Highest Truth within ACIM, but true mastery is being able to balance and integrate these Truths into our daily, illusionary lives.

        Illusions --so be it . . . I prefer to create joyful, beautiful 'illusions', myself . . . for in so doing, I see the Divine made manifest. I 'perceive' the Light and Love in the 'illusions'.

        Why are we so quick to judge and discount the 'illusions' that make this experience?

        Why can we not see the illusion for what it is, bless 'it', and create 'illusionary' expressions of Divinity instead?

        Is not the Earth a most beautiful 'illusion'?

        Do you not see the Divine, You, I AM in the 'illusion' of the majestic oak tree?

        Is not the paper ACIM is printed on an 'illusion'?

        Is not the very keyboard I am typing on an 'illusion'?

        This 'illusionary' keyboard helps me to convey 'my' messages to the other 'me', does it not?

        Or how about the exquisite 'illusion' of Love 'perceived' when looking into the eyes of a child, or a lover?

        A child is capable of memorizing and reciting fundamental quantum physics laws . . . but does that automatically dictate that he can put them to practice?

        Simply another 'perspective' . . .

        ~NAMASTE~
        Abounding Light and Love
        • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

          Sat, August 20, 2005 - 6:19 AM
          Thanks Truth Seeker.

          The truth seems to be that everything and everyone is "special" and setting anything aside as less than perfectly loveable is non-forgiveness.

          Does the Course talk much about persistence? It seems like it over-emphasizes the ease of forgiveness to me!! Cause when it gets down to it, forgiveness is practiced by a kind of dogged faithfulfulness and persistence.

          Maybe my next question is how to stay persistent in practice... not letting adverse conditions become obstacles to peace, and not allowing melodrama to distract me from persistently practicing forgiveness.
          • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

            Sat, August 20, 2005 - 9:59 AM
            I have not read the Course thoroughly, which is one of the reasons I have joined this tribe, in order to 'see' it from the 'perspective' of others. So my answer to the first question is 'I don't know' on what the Course teaches regarding such.

            But it seems only 'natural' that persistence would be fundamental, because 'complete' unconditional forgiveness does not come 'naturally' to the human condition --we are raised otherwise. Many may talk the talk, but rarely as children did we see 'true' forgiveness exercised.

            Organized Protestant Christianity was the foundation to my awakening . . . many a preacher spoke of forgiveness, as Christ did -- although I never really saw it in action --especially within my own family.

            Nor was it ever preached in the churches that I attended that first --one must 'forgive' oneself; to love oneself unconditionally. In fact, it is preached in the churches that to love oneself is a sin, selfish and dirty.

            But how can we offer that which we do not possess? How can I 'forgive another' if I have not first PERSISTENTLY practiced forgiving myself for the errors that I make? How can I offer unconditional love to another, if I do not love myself? And does it not take unconditional love to carry forgiveness of any and all 'attacks'? I would like to note that forgiveness does not mean acceptance of the behavior, simply acceptance of the person.

            It is through deep, merciful introspection that one is able to understand themselves, and then others they encounter.

            Understanding what is the source of my 'error' --the wounds and false teachings of the past that motivated my behavior that did not truly speak of who I am, was critical in my being able to see beyond the 'attack' of another person and recognize it for what it truly was.

            When another lashes out, it is because they carry much pain and fear and do not want to be alone in this. Just like when there is abounding peace, joy and hope in our hearts, this too, we want to share with others. We are independent, yet interconnected, one to the other.

            Taking this a step further (and again, I do not know if the Course expounds on this) . . . we attract others to us -and they, us to them, that which reflects what is within.

            If we are in a place that we have 'wounds' that need to be seen and healed, we will cross paths with an individual with reflective issues. At any given moment, we are blessed with the opportunity to recognize what is going on behind the 'illusion' of the interaction, and heal the pain within our hearts and psyche. But it requires being 'affectionately dettached', much like a scientist, in order to see not just the others actions, but our own.

            And again, on the other side, when we persistently work through the process of knowing, healing and loving ourselves, we then see this reflected back to us in those who enter our lives. My recent experience in tribe.net has been a most blessed example of such. Like attracts like. We are here to heal one another, to help one another remember the Truth, to love one another, and this starts from within.

            When we are coming from a place of wholeness within ourselves (not perfection mind you, for we are working within the framework of the current human condition), we begin to see that the 'attack' of another is truly not a 'personal' attack on us, and forgiveness begins to become more natural . . .and the more 'natural' and effortless it is to forgive, we begin to completely understand what it means when the Course says there is nothing to forgive.

            I hope this is but one among many things that will aid you in your search.

            Infinite Light and Love~
            • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

              Sat, August 20, 2005 - 9:01 PM
              Truth seeker, perfect!

              The lesson I am on today is:

              Holding grievances is an attack on God's plan for salvation.

              Thankyou for your perspective as a fellow protestant. I agree with you completely. From the point of view of wholeness, an attack on me is nothing personal and therefore forgiveable.. too true!

              I would add perhaps that an attack on God from ME is also nothing personal, but simply an error and part of the whole, forgiveable too once recognised. Thank you for helping me to bring to light this further subtlety of forgivenness!

              Blessed be!

              Paul Bard.
              • Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

                Sun, August 21, 2005 - 4:07 AM

                Much pleasure, my fellow lefty! ;-)
                I am very blessed to be able to share with
                and receive from those such as yourself.

                And very true . . . an attack on God is nothing 'personal' and forgiveable by God.

                However, When we commit the act of 'attack' on another it IS personal, for we are in all actuality attacking ourselves.

                Blessed Be
                Abounding Light and Love~
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: What is forgiveness? How is it practiced?

    Sun, August 21, 2005 - 8:22 AM
    Here's my personal concept of forgiveness...

    Forgiveness, whether it be forgiveness of ourselves or of others, is the absolute acceptance of what is. No judgment, no expectation. When you completely forgive, you don't hang on to the way you WANT things to be - you accept and move on.

    This definition doesn't seem to negate the fact that we are all one. And the way to surrender to the vision of oneness is, once again, release all the ego desires of the way you want things to be and accept everyone (including yourself) as they are.

    Below is a passage that I have always appreciated by Dick Sutphen:

    -----------
    WHAT IS, IS

    Here's a bit of awareness that just may be the wisdom of the Universe...

    It is your resistance to the things you cannot change that causes all your suffering. Once again... it is your resistance to the things you cannot change that causes all your suffering.

    When people and things aren't the way you want them to be, you get upset.
    But be aware that any time you resist your mate or lover, your kids, co-workers, friends, family... or the government or even a waiter in a restaurant, you are responding to the illusion that other people and events are doing something to you.

    Instead, you need to change your experience of people and circumstances, because they are incapable of doing anything to you, short of physical violence. They simply trigger feelings that lie within you. You choose how you are going to react.

    It is your viewpoint and you can choose to react positively or negatively to outside circumstances. The wise response is to chose a detached, positive viewpoint. You can view your setbacks and frustrations as problems, or as opportunities. It's always up to you.

    And while we're on this subject, know that anytime you get upset with another person, it's because you had expectations of approval or control. You wanted the other person to approve of you, or your ideas, or actions, or you wanted to control their actions. This is simply not your right. No once can change another person, and if they could, any forced change would not last.

    So the real problem is your expectations beings in conflect with what is... which takes us right back to resisting things you cannot change.
    - Dick Sutphen

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